Honda Elite Ch80 Problem

[Ray Davies]

Hello all,

This is the second used CH80 that I've bought thats got the EXACT same
problem so I'm hoping it's a well known issue and hopefully not too hard to
get fixed.

Here's what happens: the bikes start up and run absolutely fine for about 2
or 3 minutes, then it starts chocking up and finally stalls. Re-starting is
sometimes difficult but not usually - what's really hard is to keep the
engine running as it keeps stalling, specially if I try to give it gas ever
so gently. The only thing I can do is to let it sit for a couple of minutes
before turning it back on again, then letting it iddle for several minutes
while praying that it doesnt stop running. Once the bike is fully warmed
up it runs great (but not as responsive as when first started, before the
stalling period kicks in).

The problem is much worse in winter than summer and is driving me nuts, I
once had a mechanic take the carburator apart and clean all the little
passages and stuff (a very young guy, didnt seem very knowledgeble and the
job was done in about 10 minutes) but the problem remained, not
surprisingly.

As I said both bikes already had this problem when purchased (the first one
got stolen so I got another one just like it because they are perfect for my
needs) and I'm not sure whether their previous owners let them sit for long
periods of time which, from what I read, can cause this type of behaviour
due to gummed up gasoline.

Any suggestions as to how to approach this problem would be greatly
appreciated, and thanks all in advance.

[htownscooter]

Post by Ray Davies
Hello all,
This is the second used CH80 that I've bought thats got the EXACT same
problem so I'm hoping it's a well known issue and hopefully not too hard to
get fixed.
Here's what happens: the bikes start up and run absolutely fine for about 2
or 3 minutes, then it starts chocking up and finally stalls. Re-starting is
sometimes difficult but not usually - what's really hard is to keep the
engine running as it keeps stalling, specially if I try to give it gas ever
so gently. The only thing I can do is to let it sit for a couple of minutes
before turning it back on again, then letting it iddle for several minutes
while praying that it doesnt stop running. Once the bike is fully warmed
up it runs great (but not as responsive as when first started, before the
stalling period kicks in).
The problem is much worse in winter than summer and is driving me nuts, I
once had a mechanic take the carburator apart and clean all the little
passages and stuff (a very young guy, didnt seem very knowledgeble and the
job was done in about 10 minutes) but the problem remained, not
surprisingly.
As I said both bikes already had this problem when purchased (the first one
got stolen so I got another one just like it because they are perfect for my
needs) and I'm not sure whether their previous owners let them sit for long
periods of time which, from what I read, can cause this type of behaviour
due to gummed up gasoline.
Any suggestions as to how to approach this problem would be greatly
appreciated, and thanks all in advance.

This is not an answer, but I have the exact same problem with the CH80
(now over 5,000 miles, I bought it new). The dealer warned me that
these ran cold, but the problem has only gotten worse. I see a slight
improvement with very frequent spark plug changes.

[Frederick G Young]

It sounds like the engine is running either too lean or too rich at startup.
More likely too rich. Does it have an enrichment device on the carb? Or is
it just a choke? The enrichment device is usually a heater coil that is
supplied from the generator coil. When the engine starts, the heater coil is
cold and the jet is fully open. As the coil heats up it causes the needle
jet, which is giving extra fuel to start, to close off. If the normal
running jets are too rich, the engine will run rough at startup, or maybe
not run at all. As you run it the heater coil warms up and the enrichment
jet shuts off. Now the engine will run smoothly, but it may be still running
rich but not enough to stop you using it. I would also check the fuel level
in the carb float chamber. You can do this by checking the float position at
the instant the float valve just closes. Of course the float bowl is removed
to do this. Perhaps the person who stripped the carb squezed the float a
bit too hard and raised the fuel level in the carb without knowing it. I
hate to say it, but there are people working on motor bikes and scooters who
only have a vague idea of how the internals of a carburettor work. Possibly
the boss was busy that day. Go on Google and do a search and you will find
lots of descriptions of various carburetors and how they work. Knowledge is
Power. It can also be money not spent! Try it.........you might like it.
(-:(

Frederick

Post by htownscooter

Post by Ray Davies
Hello all,
This is the second used CH80 that I've bought thats got the EXACT same
problem so I'm hoping it's a well known issue and hopefully not too hard to
get fixed.
Here's what happens: the bikes start up and run absolutely fine for about 2
or 3 minutes, then it starts chocking up and finally stalls. Re-starting is
sometimes difficult but not usually - what's really hard is to keep the
engine running as it keeps stalling, specially if I try to give it gas ever
so gently. The only thing I can do is to let it sit for a couple of minutes
before turning it back on again, then letting it iddle for several minutes
while praying that it doesnt stop running. Once the bike is fully warmed
up it runs great (but not as responsive as when first started, before the
stalling period kicks in).
The problem is much worse in winter than summer and is driving me nuts, I
once had a mechanic take the carburator apart and clean all the little
passages and stuff (a very young guy, didnt seem very knowledgeble and the
job was done in about 10 minutes) but the problem remained, not
surprisingly.
As I said both bikes already had this problem when purchased (the first one
got stolen so I got another one just like it because they are perfect for my
needs) and I'm not sure whether their previous owners let them sit for long
periods of time which, from what I read, can cause this type of behaviour
due to gummed up gasoline.
Any suggestions as to how to approach this problem would be greatly
appreciated, and thanks all in advance.

This is not an answer, but I have the exact same problem with the CH80
(now over 5,000 miles, I bought it new). The dealer warned me that
these ran cold, but the problem has only gotten worse. I see a slight
improvement with very frequent spark plug changes.

[RickRussellTX]

Post by Ray Davies
Here's what happens: the bikes start up and run absolutely fine for about 2
or 3 minutes, then it starts chocking up and finally stalls. Re-starting is

Hmm, I'm not an expert in two-strokes, but...

If the engine was running too lean, it might start up and work until
the bystarter (aka automatic choke) warms up. Since the choke is
electrically actuated by warmth (not based on the actual temp of the
engine), it would reset in a few minutes when turned off. If that's
the only problem, then it sounds like the mixture needs to be
enrichened.

I don't know if the Elite 80 uses a vented gas cap, but if so, maybe
the cap isn't venting properly. Try loosening the gas camp as soon as
it stalls, then try to start it up again.


RR

[Frederick G Young]

Agree! Look for the simple solution first and progress to the more
complicated slowly and reluctantly.
Frederick

Post by RickRussellTX

Post by Ray Davies
Here's what happens: the bikes start up and run absolutely fine for about 2
or 3 minutes, then it starts chocking up and finally stalls. Re-starting is

Hmm, I'm not an expert in two-strokes, but...
If the engine was running too lean, it might start up and work until
the bystarter (aka automatic choke) warms up. Since the choke is
electrically actuated by warmth (not based on the actual temp of the
engine), it would reset in a few minutes when turned off. If that's
the only problem, then it sounds like the mixture needs to be
enrichened.
I don't know if the Elite 80 uses a vented gas cap, but if so, maybe
the cap isn't venting properly. Try loosening the gas camp as soon as
it stalls, then try to start it up again.
RR

[paul c]

Post by Frederick G Young
Agree! Look for the simple solution first and progress to the more
complicated slowly and reluctantly.
Frederick

Post by RickRussellTX

Post by Ray Davies
Here's what happens: the bikes start up and run absolutely fine for about 2
or 3 minutes, then it starts chocking up and finally stalls. Re-starting is

Hmm, I'm not an expert in two-strokes, but...
If the engine was running too lean, it might start up and work until
the bystarter (aka automatic choke) warms up. Since the choke is
electrically actuated by warmth (not based on the actual temp of the
engine), it would reset in a few minutes when turned off. If that's
the only problem, then it sounds like the mixture needs to be
enrichened.
I don't know if the Elite 80 uses a vented gas cap, but if so, maybe
the cap isn't venting properly. Try loosening the gas camp as soon as
it stalls, then try to start it up again.

Makes sense as a first approach to me too. Although I believe there are
two flavours of Honda automatic chokes, they are actually enricheners,
one blocks main air bleed by default (richer), then opens it when the
wax heats up, giving a leaner mix. When it fails, the engine is always
running rich. Sounds like the ch80 has the other kind that reduces
pilot fuel mix after it warms up, I'm not sure.

It might be too late now, but just to add, before adjusting a fuel or
air screw, count the number of turns it is already set at and write that
number down!

I notice the ch250 service manual doesn't suggest a starting number of
turns but the cn250 manual does.

The fuel mixture screw in this case looks like #27 in:

http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/honda-motorcycle-ch80-elite-1999/o/m2097

Turning it out would richen the mix.

The idle screw looks like it could be #6. Sometimes people turn it in
for a faster idle, but this can make starting harder, then they richen
the mix with the pilot screw. Doesn't sound like that's the case here,
but sometimes a too high idle and a too low fuel mix can give similar
symptoms to low idle and high fuel. I mention this only because Rick
said it felt less responsive after it was warm.

If you don't have a service manual and tachometer or not much practice
with carbs, I'd suggest changing fuel mix/pilot screw in very small
increments, 1/8 or 1/4 of a turn and trying the full throttle range
after each. This might take a while, letting the engine cool for
perhaps hours to make sure starting hasn't been worsened.

(I'm pretty sure all ch80's were four-strokes.)

[Frederick G Young]

Actually I had this almost identical problem on my daughter's Road
Runner Classic scooter. It has a CV30 carburettor. The scooter would start
OK and then when you tried to accelerate it would stutter and stall. I
switched the enrichment unit for a replacement sent from LA. They looked
identical but I still had the same problem. When I raised the main jet
needle it improved but still had a bad flat spot on accelerating the
engineThis seemed to indicate that there was some fuel starvation early. The
opposite of what I had thought. I was fast coming to the conclusion that
maybe the mixture was in fact lean at the point where the flat spot started.
So I bit the bullet and for the nth time I removed the carb and set the
float valve striker plate up a little raising the float at shut off about a
couple of mm. That improved the flat spot a lot. It told me that maybe I
could now set the main jet needle up to the center of the five notches on
thre needle. The start was now excellent even when the weather was cold, and
the scooter acceleration was much better. I forgot to mention that the
enrichment unit had been installed with a thin rubber washer under it. I
thought that was strange because it seals with an "o" ring. I concluded that
the washer was to maintain enrichment longer than without it. The wax
capsule in the unit would have to extend further to shut off. This would
help to compensate for the weaker main jet output during engine rev burst,
caused by a low fuel level in the fuel bowl.
Summary:
The factory had changed one thing to fix another. I fixed both and thing now
run much better with less fuel consumption. No applause please <G>. As Bob
Hope used to say "Throw money."
Hope this cast more light on the problem.
Frederick

Post by paul c

Post by Frederick G Young
Agree! Look for the simple solution first and progress to the more
complicated slowly and reluctantly.
Frederick

Post by RickRussellTX

Post by Ray Davies
Here's what happens: the bikes start up and run absolutely fine for about 2
or 3 minutes, then it starts chocking up and finally stalls.
Re-starting is

Hmm, I'm not an expert in two-strokes, but...
If the engine was running too lean, it might start up and work until
the bystarter (aka automatic choke) warms up. Since the choke is
electrically actuated by warmth (not based on the actual temp of the
engine), it would reset in a few minutes when turned off. If that's
the only problem, then it sounds like the mixture needs to be
enrichened.
I don't know if the Elite 80 uses a vented gas cap, but if so, maybe
the cap isn't venting properly. Try loosening the gas camp as soon as
it stalls, then try to start it up again.

Makes sense as a first approach to me too. Although I believe there are
two flavours of Honda automatic chokes, they are actually enricheners, one
blocks main air bleed by default (richer), then opens it when the wax
heats up, giving a leaner mix. When it fails, the engine is always
running rich. Sounds like the ch80 has the other kind that reduces pilot
fuel mix after it warms up, I'm not sure.
It might be too late now, but just to add, before adjusting a fuel or air
screw, count the number of turns it is already set at and write that
number down!
I notice the ch250 service manual doesn't suggest a starting number of
turns but the cn250 manual does.
http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/honda-motorcycle-ch80-elite-1999/o/m2097
Turning it out would richen the mix.
The idle screw looks like it could be #6. Sometimes people turn it in for
a faster idle, but this can make starting harder, then they richen the mix
with the pilot screw. Doesn't sound like that's the case here, but
sometimes a too high idle and a too low fuel mix can give similar symptoms
to low idle and high fuel. I mention this only because Rick said it felt
less responsive after it was warm.
If you don't have a service manual and tachometer or not much practice
with carbs, I'd suggest changing fuel mix/pilot screw in very small
increments, 1/8 or 1/4 of a turn and trying the full throttle range after
each. This might take a while, letting the engine cool for perhaps hours
to make sure starting hasn't been worsened.
(I'm pretty sure all ch80's were four-strokes.)

[paul c]

Post by Frederick G Young
Actually I had this almost identical problem on my daughter's Road
Runner Classic scooter. It has a CV30 carburettor. The scooter would start
OK and then when you tried to accelerate it would stutter and stall. I
switched the enrichment unit for a replacement sent from LA. They looked
identical but I still had the same problem. When I raised the main jet
needle it improved but still had a bad flat spot on accelerating the
engineThis seemed to indicate that there was some fuel starvation early. The
opposite of what I had thought. I was fast coming to the conclusion that
maybe the mixture was in fact lean at the point where the flat spot started.
So I bit the bullet and for the nth time I removed the carb and set the
float valve striker plate up a little raising the float at shut off about a
couple of mm. That improved the flat spot a lot. It told me that maybe I
could now set the main jet needle up to the center of the five notches on
thre needle. The start was now excellent even when the weather was cold, and
the scooter acceleration was much better. I forgot to mention that the
enrichment unit had been installed with a thin rubber washer under it. I
thought that was strange because it seals with an "o" ring. I concluded that
the washer was to maintain enrichment longer than without it. The wax
capsule in the unit would have to extend further to shut off. This would
help to compensate for the weaker main jet output during engine rev burst,
caused by a low fuel level in the fuel bowl.
The factory had changed one thing to fix another. I fixed both and thing now
run much better with less fuel consumption. No applause please <G>. As Bob
Hope used to say "Throw money."
Hope this cast more light on the problem.
Frederick

I'm curious whether there was a dramatic increase in fuel consumption
after that. My understanding is that with most smaller carbs that have
a low speed jet / slow jet / pilot jet and a single main jet, the low
speed jet is in play up to about 3/4 throttle. You've increased the
constant flow from the bigger main jet and it seems the air intake and
exhaust system can handle that, so have you noticed a fuel consumption
increase? Also, does your daughter regularly ride at WOT?

[dannygirl]

Post by Ray Davies
Hello all,
This is the second used CH80 that I've bought thats got the EXACT same
problem so I'm hoping it's a well known issue and hopefully not too hard to
get fixed.
Here's what happens: the bikes start up and run absolutely fine for about 2
or 3 minutes, then it starts chocking up and finally stalls. Re-starting is
sometimes difficult but not usually - what's really hard is to keep the
engine running as it keeps stalling, specially if I try to give it gas ever
so gently. The only thing I can do is to let it sit for a couple of minutes
before turning it back on again, then letting it iddle for several minutes
while praying that it doesnt stop running. Once the bike is fully warmed
up it runs great (but not as responsive as when first started, before the
stalling period kicks in).
The problem is much worse in winter than summer and is driving me nuts, I
once had a mechanic take the carburator apart and clean all the little
passages and stuff (a very young guy, didnt seem very knowledgeble and the
job was done in about 10 minutes) but the problem remained, not
surprisingly.
As I said both bikes already had this problem when purchased (the first one
got stolen so I got another one just like it because they are perfect for my
needs) and I'm not sure whether their previous owners let them sit for long
periods of time which, from what I read, can cause this type of behaviour
due to gummed up gasoline.
Any suggestions as to how to approach this problem would be greatly
appreciated, and thanks all in advance.

What kind of engine does the CH80 have ? I'm Christian who loves
scooters. I'n a scooter nut,,,,,,,,,,,,

Danny

[Gregg]

Post by dannygirl
What kind of engine does the CH80 have ? I'm Christian who loves
scooters. I'n a scooter nut,,,,,,,,,,,,
Danny

...............................................................................................................
It has a four stroke gasoline engine with a seperate oil sump.

I'm a pagan who loves life.

So what ?

Gregg

[Blaster]

Post by Gregg

Post by dannygirl
What kind of engine does the CH80 have ? I'm Christian who loves
scooters. I'n a scooter nut,,,,,,,,,,,,
Danny

...............................................................................................................
It has a four stroke gasoline engine with a seperate oil sump.
I'm a pagan who loves life.
So what ?
Gregg

I'm a Monster on a Malaguti that loves going fast, So........ buttons on yer
underwear ;)

[Bike guy Joe]

Post by Ray Davies
Any suggestions as to how to approach this problem would be greatly
appreciated, and thanks all in advance.

Change your fuel, check the filter/screen add a new plug and check the
air filter. Also check all fuel and vacuum lines.

[b***@gmail.com]

One trick I learned is adjusting the idle. In the winter, i turned mine up pretty high. It didn't fix it entirely, but my bike would start a little more eagerly. Now, however, I have a new set of problems. The starter went out. I replaced it. It ran great for about 2 days. Then, it wouldn't start at all. I changed the fuel line. And it starts. Runs. But won't accelerate over about 15.

[p***@always.wet]

Post by b***@gmail.com
One trick I learned is adjusting the idle. In the winter, i turned mine
up pretty high. It didn't fix it entirely, but my bike would start a little
more eagerly. Now, however, I have a new set of problems. The starter went
out. I replaced it. It ran great for about 2 days. Then, it wouldn't start
at all. I changed the fuel line. And it starts. Runs. But won't accelerate
over about 15.

You might pull the carb and clean it good, blow out the passages, check
the float height and the CV diaphram if fitted. I'd also install an inline
fuel filter. If it doesn't seem to be a carb issue check the CVT belt;
could be stretched or otherwise worn and slipping.

[j***@gmail.com]

The automatic choke on the CH80 uses a wax. It wears out. Replace it and it will be good to go.