Should all scooter wheels be balanced?

[T i m]

Hi All,

I think I've asked this in another thread but because I'm interested
in a general poll on this I should I'd start a new question if I may.

Our daughters Piaggio Skipper scooter just had a new pair of tyres
fitted in the shop and when I mentioned balancing (just as they
finished fitting the wheels back on) they said "they don't bother
balancing with small wheeled scooters". They also mentioned something
about "because they only go slowly" etc etc.

Now what makes matters worse for me is that it also appears they have
left the previous balancing weights on (so someone must have thought
it worthwhile?) so in my mind that a double whammy?

For my peace of mind I'd be tempted to pop it back in there (they are
pretty friendly and I've known then for 30+ years) and get them just
to first check the balance then (potentially) remove the existing
weights and re-balance the wheels if they are out?

I know some 50cc peds only go 30 mph (here in the UK especially) but
this 125cc Skipper is supposed to go a good deal faster (I've seen it
doing 55 mph already). ;-)

So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?

Any stories of feeling out_of_balance wheels etc ..?

All the best ..

T i m

[Gregg]

Though some will beg off saying their balancing machine can't take such a
small wheel, INO any shop that sells small wheel scooters has a
responsibility to the customer to provide such service.

I doubt an unbalanced tire will be noticeable at speeds below 45mph or show
irregular or accelerated wear.

But after kitting my Derbi Atlantis's and getting speeds of 55 mph + I noted
vibration and shimmy that stopped after balancing.

Same for the 03 Boulevard I had for a while.

Gregg

Post by T i m
Hi All,
I think I've asked this in another thread but because I'm interested
in a general poll on this I should I'd start a new question if I may.
Our daughters Piaggio Skipper scooter just had a new pair of tyres
fitted in the shop and when I mentioned balancing (just as they
finished fitting the wheels back on) they said "they don't bother
balancing with small wheeled scooters". They also mentioned something
about "because they only go slowly" etc etc.
Now what makes matters worse for me is that it also appears they have
left the previous balancing weights on (so someone must have thought
it worthwhile?) so in my mind that a double whammy?
For my peace of mind I'd be tempted to pop it back in there (they are
pretty friendly and I've known then for 30+ years) and get them just
to first check the balance then (potentially) remove the existing
weights and re-balance the wheels if they are out?
I know some 50cc peds only go 30 mph (here in the UK especially) but
this 125cc Skipper is supposed to go a good deal faster (I've seen it
doing 55 mph already). ;-)
So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?
Any stories of feeling out_of_balance wheels etc ..?
All the best ..
T i m

[paul c]

Post by Gregg
Though some will beg off saying their balancing machine can't take such a
small wheel, INO any shop that sells small wheel scooters has a
responsibility to the customer to provide such service.
I doubt an unbalanced tire will be noticeable at speeds below 45mph or show
irregular or accelerated wear.
But after kitting my Derbi Atlantis's and getting speeds of 55 mph + I noted
vibration and shimmy that stopped after balancing.
Same for the 03 Boulevard I had for a while.
Gregg

Makes sense to me unless the scoot spends all its time on the beach.
I've seen several new scoots (12" wheels and bigger) that came from the
factory with weights on. I imagine transmission and axle parts will
wear more predictably too.

[T i m]

Post by paul c

Post by Gregg
Though some will beg off saying their balancing machine can't take such a
small wheel, INO any shop that sells small wheel scooters has a
responsibility to the customer to provide such service.
I doubt an unbalanced tire will be noticeable at speeds below 45mph or show
irregular or accelerated wear.
But after kitting my Derbi Atlantis's and getting speeds of 55 mph + I noted
vibration and shimmy that stopped after balancing.
Same for the 03 Boulevard I had for a while.
Gregg

Makes sense to me unless the scoot spends all its time on the beach.

Me too ..

Post by paul c
I've seen several new scoots (12" wheels and bigger) that came from the
factory with weights on. I imagine transmission and axle parts will
wear more predictably too.

Ok, another pro balancing .. thanks Paul. ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

[T i m]

Post by Gregg
Though some will beg off saying their balancing machine can't take such a
small wheel, INO any shop that sells small wheel scooters has a
responsibility to the customer to provide such service.

That's a good point .. their machine might not take that size wheel
etc ..

Post by Gregg
I doubt an unbalanced tire will be noticeable at speeds below 45mph or show
irregular or accelerated wear.

Ok ..

Post by Gregg
But after kitting my Derbi Atlantis's and getting speeds of 55 mph + I noted
vibration and shimmy that stopped after balancing.

So, it *is* noticeable then .. even at those (relatively low) speeds.

Post by Gregg
Same for the 03 Boulevard I had for a while.

Ok and thanks for that Gregg.

All the best ..

T i m

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

Post by T i m
So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?

Don't really have any experience with such (only had one tire
changed in my riding experience [was coming up on a second, but traded
it up to a new machine which gets better tire life]). From what I've
seen in the shop areas, static balancing may be the best that is offered
-- nothing in the way of a fancy computerized spin balancer.

Rudimentary check: balance the machine on the center stand so the
wheel in question is off the ground; give it a hand spin, and chalk mark
the bottom when it stops... repeat a few times, to see if it always
stops in the same orientation -- that should indicate if there is a
gross imbalance.

[paul c]

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by T i m
So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?

Don't really have any experience with such (only had one tire
changed in my riding experience [was coming up on a second, but traded
it up to a new machine which gets better tire life]). From what I've
seen in the shop areas, static balancing may be the best that is offered
-- nothing in the way of a fancy computerized spin balancer.
Rudimentary check: balance the machine on the center stand so the
wheel in question is off the ground; give it a hand spin, and chalk mark
the bottom when it stops... repeat a few times, to see if it always
stops in the same orientation -- that should indicate if there is a
gross imbalance.

Maybe for a front wheel, but I think there's too much drive friction
built into most rear wheels for that. For rear wheels, too much or too
little side-to-side play is just as important.

Static balancing is easy even if it might seem to take longer the first
few times, all you really need is a round shaft close in diameter to the
that of the axle and a couple of crates, chairs or what-have-you for
stands, and a cheap level indicator. I've used a static balancer a few
times and then tested the same wheel on an automatic balancer. The hand
jobs were out by less than the weight of a typical bike wheel weight (7
grams or about 1/4 ounce).

[T i m]

Post by paul c

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber
Rudimentary check: balance the machine on the center stand so the
wheel in question is off the ground; give it a hand spin, and chalk mark
the bottom when it stops... repeat a few times, to see if it always
stops in the same orientation -- that should indicate if there is a
gross imbalance.

Maybe for a front wheel, but I think there's too much drive friction
built into most rear wheels for that.

Ah, you beat me to it Paul. ;-)

Post by paul c
For rear wheels, too much or too
little side-to-side play is just as important.

Ok ..

Post by paul c
Static balancing is easy even if it might seem to take longer the first
few times, all you really need is a round shaft close in diameter to the
that of the axle and a couple of crates, chairs or what-have-you for
stands, and a cheap level indicator.

Sounds similar to balancing RC plane props etc ..

Post by paul c
I've used a static balancer a few
times and then tested the same wheel on an automatic balancer. The hand
jobs were out by less than the weight of a typical bike wheel weight (7
grams or about 1/4 ounce).

Quite impressive and pleasing when it works out that way eh Paul. ;-)

I think I'll first ask if they *can* balance that size wheel and if
they can ask (kindly) if they wouldn't mind doing so for me (normally
I'd just take the wheel in but it will be easier for them to take the
exhaust off on their lift etc).

All the best ..

T i m

[paul c]

T i m wrote:
..

Post by T i m
Quite impressive and pleasing when it works out that way eh Paul. ;-)
...

Heh, if you get lucky you might find that a single weight moves the stop
point almost exactly 180 degrees. In that case, you're done, you can
save the weight for next time!

Regarding wear on other parts, I didn't mean to suggest that a single
weight might change things. Just as important, maybe more, is to check
the wheel for trueness/run-out and out-of-round before you do the static
balance because too much wobble or bounce could be dangerous. You can
probably do this without taking the wheel off the scoot. I seem to
remember a rule of thumb spoked bike wheel lacers use is about 1/8"
maximum for a 16 or 17 inch wheel, guess that would be less for a
smaller wheel. I've heard some people suggest as much as 1/4"
out-of-true for the larger bike wheels. Would think any similar
out-of-round would be bad. Of course the lacers have the advantage that
a traditional spoked wheel can be trued, that's generally not possible
for a cast wheel without a specialty lathe as far as I know.

One thing about wheels compared to batteries though, is that if the
balancing/truing did any good, a sensitive rider will notice the difference.

[Turbo Torch]

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by T i m
So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?

Don't really have any experience with such (only had one tire
changed in my riding experience [was coming up on a second, but traded
it up to a new machine which gets better tire life]). From what I've
seen in the shop areas, static balancing may be the best that is offered
-- nothing in the way of a fancy computerized spin balancer.
Rudimentary check: balance the machine on the center stand so the
wheel in question is off the ground; give it a hand spin, and chalk mark
the bottom when it stops... repeat a few times, to see if it always
stops in the same orientation -- that should indicate if there is a
gross imbalance.

Maybe for a front wheel, but I think there's too much drive friction built
into most rear wheels for that. For rear wheels, too much or too little
side-to-side play is just as important.

A static balancer has its own precision bearings and does not rely on the
wheel's bearings at all.
My balancer has two machined cones on a shaft that go through the wheel.
That sits on two pods with small precision bearings in each.
Static balancers won't get out of calibration and they are about all you'll
see at race tracks. The process isn't as fast as electronic balancers but
the accuracy is second to none.

I also have a manual changer so I do all my own tires change outs. I
typically balance down to 5 grams and could go even less but that would be
splitting hairs as regular wear and tear will throw them out of balance a
little bit over so many miles.

And yes I balance the scooter tires too. At 10" they spin pretty fast.

[paul c]

Turbo Torch wrote:
...

Post by Turbo Torch
And yes I balance the scooter tires too. At 10" they spin pretty fast.

That is a very good point. Sometimes the obvious eludes me. I must
remember it the next time somebody tells me there's no point to
balancing them.

[T i m]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:21:15 -0600, "Turbo Torch"

Post by Turbo Torch
A static balancer has its own precision bearings and does not rely on the
wheel's bearings at all.

Understood. I have a comm truing lathe for RC car electric motors and
that has it's own bearings.

Post by Turbo Torch
My balancer has two machined cones on a shaft that go through the wheel.
That sits on two pods with small precision bearings in each.

Ok ..

Post by Turbo Torch
Static balancers won't get out of calibration and they are about all you'll
see at race tracks.

I must admit I was surprised about that (thinking they of all people
would have all the latest computer controlled wizardry) ?

Post by Turbo Torch
The process isn't as fast as electronic balancers but
the accuracy is second to none.

So I guess why it (the above paragraph) makes sense?

Post by Turbo Torch
I also have a manual changer so I do all my own tires change outs.

Hmm, I wonder if I have enough room in my workshop ... ;-)

Post by Turbo Torch
I
typically balance down to 5 grams and could go even less but that would be
splitting hairs as regular wear and tear will throw them out of balance a
little bit over so many miles.

Real world stuff n that. My only background thought was is there any
difference between dynamic and static balance? I guess the answer
might be 'yes' but not enough to make it an issue (hence static
balancing race bikes etc)?

Post by Turbo Torch
And yes I balance the scooter tires too.

Ok, another 'yes' then (thanks).

Post by Turbo Torch
At 10" they spin pretty fast.

Yeah, I was thinking that when the guy in the shop said "peds don't go
very fast" (but not all scooters are peds of course) ..

Thanks for the feedback ..

T i m

[paul c]

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
... From what I've

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber
seen in the shop areas, static balancing may be the best that is offered
-- nothing in the way of a fancy computerized spin balancer.
...

I believe even some factory bike racing teams think it's good enough
too. I imagine they could afford a computerized one if they thought it
made any difference.

[T i m]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:52:40 -0800, Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by T i m
So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?

Don't really have any experience with such (only had one tire
changed in my riding experience [was coming up on a second, but traded
it up to a new machine which gets better tire life]). From what I've
seen in the shop areas, static balancing may be the best that is offered
-- nothing in the way of a fancy computerized spin balancer.

Ok, well our place does have a computerized balancer but it's not a
fully automatic one (it's hand spun for example) as the ones I'm more
used to in car tyre places.

I think they set the rim diameter somewhere, give it a spin and it
beeps after a few turns and tells you what weight(s) to put on and
where. I'm not sure if it does inside and outside of the rim like the
car ones do.

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber
Rudimentary check: balance the machine on the center stand so the
wheel in question is off the ground; give it a hand spin, and chalk mark
the bottom when it stops... repeat a few times, to see if it always
stops in the same orientation -- that should indicate if there is a
gross imbalance.

Good idea Dennis. I think I can do that on the front as it might be
free enough to rotate like that but I'm not sure about the rear (but
not tried it so I will asap).

All the best ..

T i m

[Jim Crowther]

Should all scooter wheels be balanced?

No - but any that expect to go over 55mph should be considered for it.

Despite asking this question right up the tree both with Piaggio (my
brand) and Michelin (also my brand).

All I can say is that 50% of the time I have had to ask for either the
wheel to be balanced (and not many places can balance scooter wheels, at
least those on my bikes) or the tyre re-located/replaced.

Symptoms of bad balance are invariably a 'jack-hammer' effect as you go
through the 70, 80 or 90 mph barriers. Rarely a front wheel problem,
it's the rear wheel that dominates here.

When the wheels *are* balanced you can go to top speed (private road of
course) with no extraneous vibration at all. X9 is 106mph (GPS), Fuoco
more than 95, no sensible second verification in place yet.

[T i m]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:32:54 +0000, Jim Crowther

Post by Jim Crowther

Should all scooter wheels be balanced?

No - but any that expect to go over 55mph should be considered for it.

Ok ..

Post by Jim Crowther
Despite asking this question right up the tree both with Piaggio (my
brand) and Michelin (also my brand).
All I can say is that 50% of the time I have had to ask for either the
wheel to be balanced (and not many places can balance scooter wheels, at
least those on my bikes) or the tyre re-located/replaced.

Ok ..

Post by Jim Crowther
Symptoms of bad balance are invariably a 'jack-hammer' effect as you go
through the 70, 80 or 90 mph barriers. Rarely a front wheel problem,
it's the rear wheel that dominates here.

Well I've experienced out_of_balance wheels on cars and even cycles
(down hills etc) but because I've always had my motorcycle wheels
balanced and don't generally ride faster than the speed limit (I'm
fortunate to be able to use our bikes for leisure so not commuting or
trying to get anywhere in a hurry) I can't say I've experienced
balance issues on them (but it doesn't sound nice, especially on a
high wheel revving machine like a small wheeled scooter).

Post by Jim Crowther
When the wheels *are* balanced you can go to top speed (private road of
course) with no extraneous vibration at all. X9 is 106mph (GPS), Fuoco
more than 95, no sensible second verification in place yet.

Yep, I guess it's like having anything that's 'in balance' it's gotta
be better performing and therefore more enjoyable to use than
something that isn't.

Well, it looks like this is something I shouldn't just take for
granted and if possible get the balance checked (or check myself
statically). Might be a good excuse to get the MIG welder out (to make
up a balancing jig) and turn up a couple of cones for the spindle rod
on my Myford ML10 lathe. ;-)

I guess my 10 Tonne hydraulic press (with suitable adaptors) would
make a good bead breaker ..? ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

[Rumple Foreskin]

You need to get a life Tim and stop worrying about your daughters wheels.
I'd be more concerned about who she is shagging.
If you knew she had 9 inches of a dreadlocked Jamaican in her nightly you
soon forget about her wheels.

[T i m]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:06:10 GMT, "Rumple Foreskin" <Rumple

Post by Rumple Foreskin
You need to get a life Tim and stop worrying about your daughters wheels.

Can't help it ..

Post by Rumple Foreskin
I'd be more concerned about who she is shagging.

I should?

Post by Rumple Foreskin
If you knew she had 9 inches of a dreadlocked Jamaican in her nightly you
soon forget about her wheels.

He stayed with her last night and she seems happy so why should I
worry (plus he's a nice guy)?

Thanks for your concern though .. it's nice to know folk care. ;-)

All the best ..

T i m (part time troll).

[Frederick G Young]

While we are all speculating; If you could find a different forum to
practice your compulsive urge to try to shock the world, who knows, but I
suspect the world would be a better place. At least this corner of it. Go
back to your self gratifying activity I assure, you won't go blind whatever
your fears may be.

Frederick

Post by Rumple Foreskin
You need to get a life Tim and stop worrying about your daughters wheels.
I'd be more concerned about who she is shagging.
If you knew she had 9 inches of a dreadlocked Jamaican in her nightly you
soon forget about her wheels.

[Bike guy Joe]

Post by Rumple Foreskin
You need to get a life Tim and stop worrying about your daughters wheels.
I'd be more concerned about who she is shagging.
If you knew she had 9 inches of a dreadlocked Jamaican in her nightly you
soon forget about her wheels.

You need to put a .45 bullet through your head asshole.

[Riley McHale]

Post by Bike guy Joe

Post by Rumple Foreskin
You need to get a life Tim and stop worrying about your daughters wheels.
I'd be more concerned about who she is shagging.
If you knew she had 9 inches of a dreadlocked Jamaican in her nightly you
soon forget about her wheels.

You need to put a .45 bullet through your head asshole.

[paul c]

Post by T i m
Well, it looks like this is something I shouldn't just take for
granted and if possible get the balance checked (or check myself
statically). Might be a good excuse to get the MIG welder out (to make
up a balancing jig) and turn up a couple of cones for the spindle rod
on my Myford ML10 lathe. ;-)
I guess my 10 Tonne hydraulic press (with suitable adaptors) would
make a good bead breaker ..? ;-)
...

Aren't you well-equipped! I have a little hand-held bead breaker that I
haven't used yet, really it's just a fancy c-clamp, thought it might be
good for trips. Also a manual-floor model that folds up. A hydraulic
press is good for bike fork stems too as long as it is the "H" kind. I
was thinking of making some aluminum cones on a small lathe, then I
thought that since they turn with the wheel, plastic might be just as
good as long as there was a metal sleeve for the set-screw. So far,
I've always been able to set a bead with quite a small air compressor,
the kind that carpenters use, only a two-gallon tank. I was thinking
even one of those bare tanks you fill at the gas station for auto flats
might work too.

[T i m]

Post by paul c

Post by T i m
Well, it looks like this is something I shouldn't just take for
granted and if possible get the balance checked (or check myself
statically). Might be a good excuse to get the MIG welder out (to make
up a balancing jig) and turn up a couple of cones for the spindle rod
on my Myford ML10 lathe. ;-)
I guess my 10 Tonne hydraulic press (with suitable adaptors) would
make a good bead breaker ..? ;-)
...

Aren't you well-equipped!

<blush> well I wouldn't .. oh, the lathes and stuff <weg> yes, well
I like workshop tools and generally prefer to buy my own stuff than
borrow, especially if I see a potential use for it later (often you
can 'win' the cost of the tool by d-i-y-ing the job). I have used the
press to rebuild my BMW gearbox, push suspension bushes out / in my
trailer, push bushes in my mates car wishbones and bend / straighten
all sorts of little bits. It's amazing what you can do with 10 tonnes
and also what needs most of that to move at all!

I bought the Myford when I was building / racing electrically
propelled vehicles (sorta battery marathon rather than sprint stuff)
and similar with the Oxy / Acetylene, Arc and MIG welders.

Apart from that I have just a bench grinder and pillar drill .. oh,
and loads of hand tools .. ;-)

Post by paul c
I have a little hand-held bead breaker that I
haven't used yet, really it's just a fancy c-clamp, thought it might be
good for trips. Also a manual-floor model that folds up.

I think the press could be adapted with a suitable bear trap looking
thing and that would also speed the action up a bit.

Post by paul c
A hydraulic
press is good for bike fork stems too as long as it is the "H" kind.

It is, floor standing. I have also made some 1/2" steel plates that
sit on the bed, one a solid flat sheet (for pressing things on to) and
another with a hole in the middle for pressing things through. I have
also various lengths of steel tube and other blocks and bars .. you
never know what you can use to get you out of trouble (the longest
thing so far was the drive shaft off the BMW).

Post by paul c
I
was thinking of making some aluminum cones on a small lathe, then I
thought that since they turn with the wheel, plastic might be just as
good as long as there was a metal sleeve for the set-screw.

Good point, and plenty accurate for the purpose etc (I've got some
lengths of nylon bar in my stock) ;-)

Post by paul c
So far,
I've always been able to set a bead with quite a small air compressor,
the kind that carpenters use, only a two-gallon tank. I was thinking
even one of those bare tanks you fill at the gas station for auto flats
might work too.

I've even do it with a foot pump and a bit of coaxing .. took a while
though! ;-)

I have a couple of compressors .. one small 'workshop' type (where the
compressor sits on top of the sideways pressure cylinder in the form
of a sack barrow) and a Bambi .. it's one of those nearly silent
jobbys where the reservoir looks like a big round cheese) they
typically use at the dentists .. (it was used by my previous Co to run
the expanding foam dispensing / packaging machine).

I need to sort the workshop out so I actually get a bike in and work
round it .. :-(

All the best ...

T i m

[paul c]

T i m wrote:
...

Post by T i m
I bought the Myford when I was building / racing electrically
propelled vehicles (sorta battery marathon rather than sprint stuff)
and similar with the Oxy / Acetylene, Arc and MIG welders.
...

Took a couple of courses on the oxy/ace stuff. After a while, I could
recognize somebody else had made a good weld, but for myself, needed
more practice than I had space or time for. I hope you keep those gases
well away from your abode! If I had the bucks, I'd spend a few hours
every week practising tig with argon.

[T i m]

Post by paul c
...

Post by T i m
I bought the Myford when I was building / racing electrically
propelled vehicles (sorta battery marathon rather than sprint stuff)
and similar with the Oxy / Acetylene, Arc and MIG welders.
...

Took a couple of courses on the oxy/ace stuff. After a while, I could
recognize somebody else had made a good weld, but for myself, needed
more practice than I had space or time for.

I did similar when I was 16 at college. I was an 'ok' welder but would
never make a living at it, especially underhand welding a gas pipe as
it disappears over the stern of a ship at sea!

. I hope you keep those gases

Post by paul c
well away from your abode!

I do, at the back of the workshop at the bottom of the garden. To be
honest I'm thinking of giving the Porta-Pak back (well the bottles at
least) as I haven't used them in a good while now. $ods law says I
will need then the next day though ..:-(

Post by paul c
If I had the bucks, I'd spend a few hours
every week practising tig with argon.

Ah, that's posh. ;-)

Talking of Argon .. I currently use Argoshield Universal but again not
very often (partly because a mate has a big MIG setup in his car
garage and there's much more room in there) so again it's the rental
that turns out expensive. I have started looking at the disposable
Argon / Co2 bottles and will probably move to those to keep the MIG
available at all times. If I have a real big job I can either use my
mates (for suitable beer donation of course) or re-rent a bigger
bottle.

Jenny (the scooter rider) did some MIG welding with me when she was
about 9 years old. Did a better job than I could! :-(

All the best ..

T i m

[Frederick G Young]

Tim,
I have always thought that the problems with setting the bead on any
tire is caused by NOT using any rubber lubricant on the bead before mounting
it. A non-caustic soap is all you need to lubricate the bead. A Glycerin
soap like Pears is excellent.
Many of the tires on US aircraft that we had during WW2 were not split
hub or detachable rim wheels. With the facilities that the Americans alway
had, that was no problem because they always had tire changing machines. In
the Fleet Air Arm on shore bases, being British, we most often didn't have
such luxury, so we had to improvise. Setting the bead on a large tire such
as on a Hellcat or a Corsair would have been impossible without bead
lubrication. Just to be able to set the hub into the tire and get the bead
down into the well took two stalwart preferably overweight mechanics sitting
on each end of a long plank to force the tire into a slight ellipse. When
this was done the hub was pushed in and set down and the fun started.
Oversize tire levers made from truck springs and liberal lubrication, and
with patience the tire was on. If my memory serves me right, there was a
rubber key moulded into the rim of the tire that at to be ligned up with key
slot in the hub. Quite a performance. You do what you gotta do.

Frederick

Post by T i m

Post by paul c

Post by T i m
Well, it looks like this is something I shouldn't just take for
granted and if possible get the balance checked (or check myself
statically). Might be a good excuse to get the MIG welder out (to make
up a balancing jig) and turn up a couple of cones for the spindle rod
on my Myford ML10 lathe. ;-)
I guess my 10 Tonne hydraulic press (with suitable adaptors) would
make a good bead breaker ..? ;-)
...

Aren't you well-equipped!

<blush> well I wouldn't .. oh, the lathes and stuff <weg> yes, well
I like workshop tools and generally prefer to buy my own stuff than
borrow, especially if I see a potential use for it later (often you
can 'win' the cost of the tool by d-i-y-ing the job). I have used the
press to rebuild my BMW gearbox, push suspension bushes out / in my
trailer, push bushes in my mates car wishbones and bend / straighten
all sorts of little bits. It's amazing what you can do with 10 tonnes
and also what needs most of that to move at all!
I bought the Myford when I was building / racing electrically
propelled vehicles (sorta battery marathon rather than sprint stuff)
and similar with the Oxy / Acetylene, Arc and MIG welders.
Apart from that I have just a bench grinder and pillar drill .. oh,
and loads of hand tools .. ;-)

Post by paul c
I have a little hand-held bead breaker that I
haven't used yet, really it's just a fancy c-clamp, thought it might be
good for trips. Also a manual-floor model that folds up.

I think the press could be adapted with a suitable bear trap looking
thing and that would also speed the action up a bit.

Post by paul c
A hydraulic
press is good for bike fork stems too as long as it is the "H" kind.

It is, floor standing. I have also made some 1/2" steel plates that
sit on the bed, one a solid flat sheet (for pressing things on to) and
another with a hole in the middle for pressing things through. I have
also various lengths of steel tube and other blocks and bars .. you
never know what you can use to get you out of trouble (the longest
thing so far was the drive shaft off the BMW).

Post by paul c
I
was thinking of making some aluminum cones on a small lathe, then I
thought that since they turn with the wheel, plastic might be just as
good as long as there was a metal sleeve for the set-screw.

Good point, and plenty accurate for the purpose etc (I've got some
lengths of nylon bar in my stock) ;-)

Post by paul c
So far,
I've always been able to set a bead with quite a small air compressor,
the kind that carpenters use, only a two-gallon tank. I was thinking
even one of those bare tanks you fill at the gas station for auto flats
might work too.

I've even do it with a foot pump and a bit of coaxing .. took a while
though! ;-)
I have a couple of compressors .. one small 'workshop' type (where the
compressor sits on top of the sideways pressure cylinder in the form
of a sack barrow) and a Bambi .. it's one of those nearly silent
jobbys where the reservoir looks like a big round cheese) they
typically use at the dentists .. (it was used by my previous Co to run
the expanding foam dispensing / packaging machine).
I need to sort the workshop out so I actually get a bike in and work
round it .. :-(
All the best ...
T i m

[T i m]

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:02:14 -0600, "Frederick G Young"

Post by Frederick G Young
Tim,
I have always thought that the problems with setting the bead on any
tire is caused by NOT using any rubber lubricant on the bead before mounting
it. A non-caustic soap is all you need to lubricate the bead. A Glycerin
soap like Pears is excellent.

The bike shop that fitted the tyres to both the scooter and my CB250
did indeed use 'tyre soap' (whatever it actually was) but my eagle eye
spotted something that may have had an impact.

Because I'd just painted the rims on the CB250 the chief mechanic
suggested the lad 'throw the tyre on' rather than using the machine.

He soaped the outside edge of the tyre bead (where it would sit
against the vertical edge of the rim) but not right round the inner
edge where it would sit on the rim face (parallel to the spindle).
This meant when they pushed it over the rim there wasn't much lube
between the inner corner of the tyre and the rim, making it a bit
tricky to push on?

Post by Frederick G Young
Many of the tires on US aircraft that we had during WW2 were not split
hub or detachable rim wheels.

I've had two vehicles with split rims .. my Lambretta SX150 and my
Messerschmitt KR200 ;-)

Post by Frederick G Young
With the facilities that the Americans alway
had, that was no problem because they always had tire changing machines. In
the Fleet Air Arm on shore bases, being British, we most often didn't have
such luxury, so we had to improvise.

Hey, that's what we are good at!

Post by Frederick G Young
Getting the bead on a large tire such
as on a Hellcat or a Corsair would have been impossible without bead
lubrication.

I bet.

Post by Frederick G Young
Just to be able to set the hub into the tire and get the bead
down into the well took two stalwart preferably overweight mechanics sitting
on each end of a long plank to force the tire into a slight ellipse.

:-)

Post by Frederick G Young
When
this was done the hub was pushed in and set down and the fun started.
Oversize tire levers made from truck springs and liberal lubrication, and
with patience the tire was on.

And that's the key to lots of this stuff isn't it Frederick, patience.
That's something that I often find lacking in this
I_want_it_and_want_it_now world ..? The number of times I've heard
someone say they couldn't do something when they really meant they
couldn't be bothered to do it or do it properly?

Post by Frederick G Young
If my memory serves me right, there was a
rubber key moulded into the rim of the tire that at to be ligned up with key
slot in the hub. Quite a performance. You do what you gotta do.

Yup ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

[Frederick G Young]

Not everyone is familiar with the principles involved in balancing.
When Tim spoke about cones, the thing that first came to mind was the cone
that is part of the static balancing machine. With this type the wheel is
place horizontal resting on a hollow cone and the cone is now set on a
vertical pointed stake, itself being vertical. That puts the center of
gravity of the wheel below the point of suspension. There is a bubble level
gauge that sets on the hub of the wheel to indicate where the center of
gravity of the wheel is from the vertical. If it's slightly off center the
wheel will not sit level and balancing it consists of adding or removing
weight to the rim on the high side. With a wheel that is Not for a wide
tread tire, this method is alright, but if the wheel is for a wide tread
tire as is the case with a lot of four wheel racing tires, this may not be
accurate enough.
If you have an out of balance on a long rotating object, as it rotates,
the "out of balance" weight does two things. It makes the object try to
move from side to side radially, but it also tries to tilt the axis of
rotation as it rotates the object. That is to wobble. So two forces are
working. If you statically balance a long rotating object and have just
found which is the heavy side, where do you put the counter balance along
it's length. The answer is " You don't know." So axially long rotating
objects can't be balanced statically and can only be balanced dynamically,
that is by checking them while rotating. Thin discs can be balanced
statically because the force on the disk which moves the axis is negligable.
It has little effect.
So where does the scooter wheel fit? I suspect that it is closer to a
thin disk than a long cylinder, so static balance should be enough. If you
want to be real finniky, then put the correcting weight on both sides of the
rim opposite each other, 50% each side. Large deep truck tires probably are
better dynamically balanced.
The rotating balancing machines you see in service centers are probably
used because the machine tells the operator, who may not be the brightest
star in the heavens, what he has to do, and the machine can often give a
record of what was done.

Hope this helped to de-mystify some of the aspects of balancing. As a
Mechanical Engineer I couldn't resist it. One of the lab experiments I had
to do was balancing a thin shaft with a lot of disks along it's length.
Because of the shaft being thin, the axis moving force of an out of balance
can actually cause the shaft to bend while rotating. As you can see, that
makes life more interesting.
Some day I will learn to be brief !!!!!

Frederick

Post by paul c

Post by T i m
Well, it looks like this is something I shouldn't just take for
granted and if possible get the balance checked (or check myself
statically). Might be a good excuse to get the MIG welder out (to make
up a balancing jig) and turn up a couple of cones for the spindle rod
on my Myford ML10 lathe. ;-)
I guess my 10 Tonne hydraulic press (with suitable adaptors) would
make a good bead breaker ..? ;-)
...

Aren't you well-equipped! I have a little hand-held bead breaker that I
haven't used yet, really it's just a fancy c-clamp, thought it might be
good for trips. Also a manual-floor model that folds up. A hydraulic
press is good for bike fork stems too as long as it is the "H" kind. I
was thinking of making some aluminum cones on a small lathe, then I
thought that since they turn with the wheel, plastic might be just as good
as long as there was a metal sleeve for the set-screw. So far, I've
always been able to set a bead with quite a small air compressor, the kind
that carpenters use, only a two-gallon tank. I was thinking even one of
those bare tanks you fill at the gas station for auto flats might work
too.

[paul c]

Post by Frederick G Young
Not everyone is familiar with the principles involved in balancing.
When Tim spoke about cones, the thing that first came to mind was the cone
that is part of the static balancing machine. With this type the wheel is
place horizontal resting on a hollow cone and the cone is now set on a
vertical pointed stake, itself being vertical. That puts the center of
gravity of the wheel below the point of suspension. There is a bubble level
gauge that sets on the hub of the wheel to indicate where the center of
gravity of the wheel is from the vertical. If it's slightly off center the
wheel will not sit level and balancing it consists of adding or removing
weight to the rim on the high side. With a wheel that is Not for a wide
tread tire, this method is alright, but if the wheel is for a wide tread
tire as is the case with a lot of four wheel racing tires, this may not be
accurate enough.
If you have an out of balance on a long rotating object, as it rotates,
the "out of balance" weight does two things. It makes the object try to
move from side to side radially, but it also tries to tilt the axis of
rotation as it rotates the object. That is to wobble. So two forces are
working. If you statically balance a long rotating object and have just
found which is the heavy side, where do you put the counter balance along
it's length. The answer is " You don't know." So axially long rotating
objects can't be balanced statically and can only be balanced dynamically,
that is by checking them while rotating. Thin discs can be balanced
statically because the force on the disk which moves the axis is negligable.
It has little effect.
So where does the scooter wheel fit? I suspect that it is closer to a
thin disk than a long cylinder, so static balance should be enough. If you
want to be real finniky, then put the correcting weight on both sides of the
rim opposite each other, 50% each side. Large deep truck tires probably are
better dynamically balanced.
The rotating balancing machines you see in service centers are probably
used because the machine tells the operator, who may not be the brightest
star in the heavens, what he has to do, and the machine can often give a
record of what was done.
Hope this helped to de-mystify some of the aspects of balancing. As a
Mechanical Engineer I couldn't resist it. One of the lab experiments I had
to do was balancing a thin shaft with a lot of disks along it's length.
Because of the shaft being thin, the axis moving force of an out of balance
can actually cause the shaft to bend while rotating. As you can see, that
makes life more interesting.
Some day I will learn to be brief !!!!!
Frederick

The static balancers I liked kept the wheel vertical, really easy to get
good results and usually there wasn't much time saving with a
computerized one. One of the vertical static balancers didn't even have
cones. I tried a horizontal one and it drove me crazy. Nobody else was
any good at it either. If you used the horizontal and then
double-checked with the computerized balancer, it was always way off. I
think it is clever in theory but hard to use in practice.

[Frederick G Young]

Paul,
I don't understand how you can statically balance a wheel and tire
vertically. if you correct the thing vertically, then when you then correct
it horizontally it will be off vertically. And then vice-versa. Did you mean
dynamically. In dynamic balancing it doesn't which way the machine is so
long as the senses are at right angles to the axis of rotation. Straighten
me out Paul !
Frederick

Post by paul c

Post by Frederick G Young
Not everyone is familiar with the principles involved in balancing.
When Tim spoke about cones, the thing that first came to mind was the
cone that is part of the static balancing machine. With this type the
wheel is place horizontal resting on a hollow cone and the cone is now
set on a vertical pointed stake, itself being vertical. That puts the
center of gravity of the wheel below the point of suspension. There is a
bubble level gauge that sets on the hub of the wheel to indicate where
the center of gravity of the wheel is from the vertical. If it's slightly
off center the wheel will not sit level and balancing it consists of
adding or removing weight to the rim on the high side. With a wheel that
is Not for a wide tread tire, this method is alright, but if the wheel is
for a wide tread tire as is the case with a lot of four wheel racing
tires, this may not be accurate enough.
If you have an out of balance on a long rotating object, as it
rotates, the "out of balance" weight does two things. It makes the
object try to move from side to side radially, but it also tries to tilt
the axis of rotation as it rotates the object. That is to wobble. So two
forces are working. If you statically balance a long rotating object and
have just found which is the heavy side, where do you put the counter
balance along it's length. The answer is " You don't know." So axially
long rotating objects can't be balanced statically and can only be
balanced dynamically, that is by checking them while rotating. Thin discs
can be balanced statically because the force on the disk which moves the
axis is negligable. It has little effect.
So where does the scooter wheel fit? I suspect that it is closer to
a thin disk than a long cylinder, so static balance should be enough. If
you want to be real finniky, then put the correcting weight on both sides
of the rim opposite each other, 50% each side. Large deep truck tires
probably are better dynamically balanced.
The rotating balancing machines you see in service centers are
probably used because the machine tells the operator, who may not be the
brightest star in the heavens, what he has to do, and the machine can
often give a record of what was done.
Hope this helped to de-mystify some of the aspects of balancing. As a
Mechanical Engineer I couldn't resist it. One of the lab experiments I
had to do was balancing a thin shaft with a lot of disks along it's
length. Because of the shaft being thin, the axis moving force of an out
of balance can actually cause the shaft to bend while rotating. As you
can see, that makes life more interesting.
Some day I will learn to be brief !!!!!
Frederick

The static balancers I liked kept the wheel vertical, really easy to get
good results and usually there wasn't much time saving with a computerized
one. One of the vertical static balancers didn't even have cones. I
tried a horizontal one and it drove me crazy. Nobody else was any good at
it either. If you used the horizontal and then double-checked with the
computerized balancer, it was always way off. I think it is clever in
theory but hard to use in practice.

[paul c]

Post by Frederick G Young
Paul,
I don't understand how you can statically balance a wheel and tire
vertically. if you correct the thing vertically, then when you then correct
it horizontally it will be off vertically. And then vice-versa. Did you mean
dynamically. In dynamic balancing it doesn't which way the machine is so
long as the senses are at right angles to the axis of rotation. Straighten
me out Paul !
Frederick

axle or balancer shaft horizontal to the floor, wheel vertical. you
just make sure the axle or shaft is level first. give the wheel just
enough push with your little finger to make it turn 180 degrees and you
will see it repeatedly come to rest at the same heavy point. weight
there then repeat until slightly different finger pressure gives it a
different resting point every time. have seen it done with just a shaft
in a vice, even though it is easier as somebody suggested, not to depend
on the wheel's own bearings. I'm sure this wouldn't work with a big
airplane wheel!

[paul c]

Post by paul c

Post by Frederick G Young
Paul,
I don't understand how you can statically balance a wheel and tire
vertically. if you correct the thing vertically, then when you then
correct it horizontally it will be off vertically. And then
vice-versa. Did you mean dynamically. In dynamic balancing it doesn't
which way the machine is so long as the senses are at right angles to
the axis of rotation. Straighten me out Paul !
Frederick

axle or balancer shaft horizontal to the floor, wheel vertical. you
just make sure the axle or shaft is level first. give the wheel just
enough push with your little finger to make it turn 180 degrees and you
will see it repeatedly come to rest at the same heavy point. weight
there ...

oops, weight opposite there.

[c***@webtv.net]

You can buy an inexpensive lawn mower blade balancer for a few dollars
at a hardware store or yard and garden store or a lawn mower store.The
balancer is a two piece device.It has a metal rod mounted on a base, the
other end of the metal rod has a sharp point on it.There is a conical
metal piece that sits on top of the metal rod.The conical piece has a
bunch of steps on it.If you remove a Scooter wheel and the axle from the
wheel and set the center of the wheel on the conical piece of the
balancer, you can see if the wheel/tire assembly is out of
balance.Probally a good idea to buy a small cheap round plastic bubble
level and place the level on the center of the other side of the wheel
too.I use a lawn mower balancer device when I sharpen my lawn mower's
blade.
cuhulin

[T i m]

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:09:32 -0600, "Frederick G Young"

Post by Frederick G Young
Not everyone is familiar with the principles involved in balancing.
When Tim spoke about cones, the thing that first came to mind was the cone
that is part of the static balancing machine. With this type the wheel is
place horizontal resting on a hollow cone and the cone is now set on a
vertical pointed stake, itself being vertical. That puts the center of
gravity of the wheel below the point of suspension. There is a bubble level
gauge that sets on the hub of the wheel to indicate where the center of
gravity of the wheel is from the vertical. If it's slightly off center the
wheel will not sit level and balancing it consists of adding or removing
weight to the rim on the high side.

Yes, I spotted one of those whilst Googling for the other type.
Interesting.

Post by Frederick G Young
With a wheel that is Not for a wide
tread tire, this method is alright, but if the wheel is for a wide tread
tire as is the case with a lot of four wheel racing tires, this may not be
accurate enough.

So especially good for yer average motorbike wheel then?

Post by Frederick G Young
If you have an out of balance on a long rotating object, as it rotates,
the "out of balance" weight does two things. It makes the object try to
move from side to side radially, but it also tries to tilt the axis of
rotation as it rotates the object. That is to wobble. So two forces are
working. If you statically balance a long rotating object and have just
found which is the heavy side, where do you put the counter balance along
it's length. The answer is " You don't know." So axially long rotating
objects can't be balanced statically and can only be balanced dynamically,
that is by checking them while rotating.

Nice description. ;-)

Post by Frederick G Young
Thin discs can be balanced
statically because the force on the disk which moves the axis is negligable.
It has little effect.

Ok ..

Post by Frederick G Young
So where does the scooter wheel fit?

One at the front and .. (sorry!) ;-)

Post by Frederick G Young
I suspect that it is closer to a
thin disk than a long cylinder, so static balance should be enough.

But less of a 'disk' than a motorbike wheel. Our daughters Piaggio has
nearly as wide a rear tyre as my CB250!

Post by Frederick G Young
If you
want to be real finniky, then put the correcting weight on both sides of the
rim opposite each other, 50% each side.

That's what the guy did on the CB250 wheels (I was pleased to see).

Post by Frederick G Young
Large deep truck tires probably are
better dynamically balanced.

Would you feel it with 20 tonne of load on_board?

Post by Frederick G Young
The rotating balancing machines you see in service centers are probably
used because the machine tells the operator, who may not be the brightest
star in the heavens, what he has to do, and the machine can often give a
record of what was done.

I like watching all that in action when I get new tyres fitted to our
cars. Fit wheel on spindle, close cover, wheel spins up then stops,
open cover, rotate wheel to outer marker and fit outer weight as
indicated, same with inner. Re-test and note all Zeros (hopefully) ;-)

Post by Frederick G Young
Hope this helped to de-mystify some of the aspects of balancing. As a
Mechanical Engineer I couldn't resist it.

Very interesting Frederick.

Post by Frederick G Young
One of the lab experiments I had
to do was balancing a thin shaft with a lot of disks along it's length.
Because of the shaft being thin, the axis moving force of an out of balance
can actually cause the shaft to bend while rotating. As you can see, that
makes life more interesting.

Like balancing a crankshaft on a straight 6! ;-)

Post by Frederick G Young
Some day I will learn to be brief !!!!!

Not too soon I hope Frederick ..

All the best ..

T i m

[paul c]

Post by Frederick G Young
Not everyone is familiar with the principles involved in balancing.
When Tim spoke about cones, the thing that first came to mind was the cone
that is part of the static balancing machine. With this type the wheel is
place horizontal resting on a hollow cone and the cone is now set on a
vertical pointed stake, itself being vertical. That puts the center of
gravity of the wheel below the point of suspension. There is a bubble level
gauge that sets on the hub of the wheel to indicate where the center of
gravity of the wheel is from the vertical. If it's slightly off center the
wheel will not sit level and balancing it consists of adding or removing
weight to the rim on the high side. With a wheel that is Not for a wide
tread tire, this method is alright, but if the wheel is for a wide tread
tire as is the case with a lot of four wheel racing tires, this may not be
accurate enough.
If you have an out of balance on a long rotating object, as it rotates,
the "out of balance" weight does two things. It makes the object try to
move from side to side radially, but it also tries to tilt the axis of
rotation as it rotates the object. That is to wobble. So two forces are
working. If you statically balance a long rotating object and have just
found which is the heavy side, where do you put the counter balance along
it's length. The answer is " You don't know." So axially long rotating
objects can't be balanced statically and can only be balanced dynamically,
that is by checking them while rotating. Thin discs can be balanced
statically because the force on the disk which moves the axis is negligable.
It has little effect.
So where does the scooter wheel fit? I suspect that it is closer to a
thin disk than a long cylinder, so static balance should be enough. If you
want to be real finniky, then put the correcting weight on both sides of the
rim opposite each other, 50% each side. Large deep truck tires probably are
better dynamically balanced.
The rotating balancing machines you see in service centers are probably
used because the machine tells the operator, who may not be the brightest
star in the heavens, what he has to do, and the machine can often give a
record of what was done.
Hope this helped to de-mystify some of the aspects of balancing. As a
Mechanical Engineer I couldn't resist it. One of the lab experiments I had
to do was balancing a thin shaft with a lot of disks along it's length.
Because of the shaft being thin, the axis moving force of an out of balance
can actually cause the shaft to bend while rotating. As you can see, that
makes life more interesting.
Some day I will learn to be brief !!!!!
Frederick

Okay Fred, now while I've got you on the line, as a mech eng, do you see
anything wrong with making cones out of plastic with a glued-in steel
sleeve for a set-screw? My guess is that because that un-balanced
weight is at the centre of the wheel, it won't affect static balancing
because uneven tire or rim weight on the circumference will greatly
offset it. Does that make sense?

[T i m]

Post by paul c
Okay Fred, now while I've got you on the line, as a mech eng, do you see
anything wrong with making cones out of plastic with a glued-in steel
sleeve for a set-screw? My guess is that because that un-balanced
weight is at the centre of the wheel, it won't affect static balancing
because uneven tire or rim weight on the circumference will greatly
offset it. Does that make sense?

This place looks interesting ..

http://www.marcparnes.com/Buyers_Guide.htm

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. Frederick, seeing the two stop wing nuts on the same side isn't
going to give you nightmares is it ... I think they might with me ...
"No, if I offset them to neutralize the balance that's doing to be a
cylinder not a disk and introduce wobble ..!"

[paul c]

T i m wrote:
...

Post by T i m
This place looks interesting ..
http://www.marcparnes.com/Buyers_Guide.htm
...

That's exactly the kind I meant. Also he mentions mounting, with some
cast wheels on automatic balancers, I've seen people waste a lot of time
mounting and getting it wrong. I don't know much about the odd-ball
wheels some bikes have that would need to use different cones than the
"universal" ones.

[c***@webtv.net]

Lawn mower Blade Balancer.
www.jackssmallengines.com/service_tools4.cfm

They work great for checking the balance of lawn mower blades.I think
they might work ok for light weight Moped and Scooter and Bicycle wheels
too.I wouldn't try it with heavy Motorcycle and Car/Truck wheels.I don't
think the lawn mower blade balancer is heavy duty enough for that.
cuhulin

[T i m]

Post by c***@webtv.net
Lawn mower Blade Balancer.
www.jackssmallengines.com/service_tools4.cfm
They work great for checking the balance of lawn mower blades.I think
they might work ok for light weight Moped and Scooter and Bicycle wheels
too.I wouldn't try it with heavy Motorcycle and Car/Truck wheels.I don't
think the lawn mower blade balancer is heavy duty enough for that.
cuhulin

I think that's the same idea (but a bit smaller) as the horizontal
wheel balancer I've seen elsewhere. Whilst I can see how it would work
on a lawnmower blade (because you would probably be grinding bit's off
the heavy side to balance it so taking it on and off the jig
frequently) as like you say, it might not be 'heavy' enough for that.

I think the cone / shaft system would also work for the lawnmower
blade (as long as it was light enough ... light shaft, light bearings
etc) it would be too awkward to take on and off the jig for the actual
balancing bit (I'm not sure you would want to grind / file any
material off the blade whilst still in the jig)?

All the best ..

T i m

[T i m]

Post by paul c
...

Post by T i m
This place looks interesting ..
http://www.marcparnes.com/Buyers_Guide.htm
...

That's exactly the kind I meant. Also he mentions mounting, with some
cast wheels on automatic balancers, I've seen people waste a lot of time
mounting and getting it wrong. I don't know much about the odd-ball
wheels some bikes have that would need to use different cones than the
"universal" ones.

I think I like the idea of a self sufficient system (with it's own
bearings on the shaft) in that you can be fairly lax with the
supports. Like it could be some bits of 2x2 with a V at the top of the
uprights?

I was thinking of welding up a nice box steel frame with the built in
roller bearing to lay the existing axle on but there's no guarantee
that the std axle is 'true', a good fit in the wheel bearings or
smooth etc. I guess it would actually be 'ok' in most cases but
possibly not as predictable as the cone / shaft / bearing end system?

The only bit I'm unsure about (from a mechanical pov) is getting
sufficient pressure on the cones with just the use of the wingbolts? I
thought maybe one side could have a threaded back nut of some sort ..
back the nut off, slide the cones into place (central on the shaft)
then lock them into place. Then give the backnut a twist to preload
the cones into the wheel bearings ... ?

I might see if I've got the bits in my stock cupboard .. ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

[Turbo Torch]

Post by paul c
Okay Fred, now while I've got you on the line, as a mech eng, do you see
anything wrong with making cones out of plastic with a glued-in steel
sleeve for a set-screw? My guess is that because that un-balanced weight
is at the centre of the wheel, it won't affect static balancing because
uneven tire or rim weight on the circumference will greatly offset it.
Does that make sense?

Make them out of something like Delrin. I don't even see the need for steel
sleeves as there's not much force needed for the set screws. If you're
picky just make sure one cone is 180 degrees from the other.

[Blaster]

Post by T i m
Hi All,
I think I've asked this in another thread but because I'm interested
in a general poll on this I should I'd start a new question if I may.
Our daughters Piaggio Skipper scooter just had a new pair of tyres
fitted in the shop and when I mentioned balancing (just as they
finished fitting the wheels back on) they said "they don't bother
balancing with small wheeled scooters". They also mentioned something
about "because they only go slowly" etc etc.
Now what makes matters worse for me is that it also appears they have
left the previous balancing weights on (so someone must have thought
it worthwhile?) so in my mind that a double whammy?
For my peace of mind I'd be tempted to pop it back in there (they are
pretty friendly and I've known then for 30+ years) and get them just
to first check the balance then (potentially) remove the existing
weights and re-balance the wheels if they are out?
I know some 50cc peds only go 30 mph (here in the UK especially) but
this 125cc Skipper is supposed to go a good deal faster (I've seen it
doing 55 mph already). ;-)
So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?
Any stories of feeling out_of_balance wheels etc ..?
All the best ..
T i m

I put the Pirelli Model SL 36 on my 2001 Malaguti Ducati Foggy Replica
50cc 2 stroke water cooled scooter, I top out at 61mph and did not need to
balance the tires, When you center stand the scooter and make the tire spin
there is no run out on the tire, Nice and round with no humps I have seen on
cheap tires, They also have a very stiff sidewall, You can stand the tire up
not mounted on a rim and sit on it without the tire collapsing.
Good tires ROCK!!!!

[T i m]

Post by Blaster
I put the Pirelli Model SL 36 on my 2001 Malaguti Ducati Foggy Replica
50cc 2 stroke water cooled scooter, I top out at 61mph and did not need to
balance the tires,

Out of interest, have you ever had to have some shooter tyres balanced
though?

Post by Blaster
When you center stand the scooter and make the tire spin
there is no run out on the tire, Nice and round with no humps I have seen on
cheap tires,

Ok. I do try and check for that as they are being balanced (except
these weren't) ..

Post by Blaster
They also have a very stiff sidewall, You can stand the tire up
not mounted on a rim and sit on it without the tire collapsing.
Good tires ROCK!!!!

;-)

All the best ..

T i m

[Blaster]

Post by T i m

Post by Blaster
I put the Pirelli Model SL 36 on my 2001 Malaguti Ducati Foggy Replica
50cc 2 stroke water cooled scooter, I top out at 61mph and did not need to
balance the tires,

Out of interest, have you ever had to have some shooter tyres balanced
though?

No, I have been lucky so far with scooters, But all my motorcycle tires have
been balanced !!
Take care,
Paul aka Sporty

Post by T i m

Post by Blaster
When you center stand the scooter and make the tire spin
there is no run out on the tire, Nice and round with no humps I have seen on
cheap tires,

Ok. I do try and check for that as they are being balanced (except
these weren't) ..

Post by Blaster
They also have a very stiff sidewall, You can stand the tire up
not mounted on a rim and sit on it without the tire collapsing.
Good tires ROCK!!!!

;-)
All the best ..
T i m

[T i m]

Post by Blaster

Post by T i m

Post by Blaster
I put the Pirelli Model SL 36 on my 2001 Malaguti Ducati Foggy Replica
50cc 2 stroke water cooled scooter, I top out at 61mph and did not need to
balance the tires,

Out of interest, have you ever had to have some shooter tyres balanced
though?

No, I have been lucky so far with scooters, But all my motorcycle tires have
been balanced !!

;-)

Post by Blaster
Take care,

And you fella ...

All the best ..

T i m

[ruonascooter]

Post by T i m
Hi All,
I think I've asked this in another thread but because I'm interested
in a general poll on this I should I'd start a new question if I may.
Our daughters Piaggio Skipper scooter just had a new pair of tyres
fitted in the shop and when I mentioned balancing (just as they
finished fitting the wheels back on) they said "they don't bother
balancing with small wheeled scooters". They also mentioned something
about "because they only go slowly" etc etc.
Now what makes matters worse for me is that it also appears they have
left the previous balancing weights on (so someone must have thought
it worthwhile?) so in my mind that a double whammy?
For my peace of mind I'd be tempted to pop it back in there (they are
pretty friendly and I've known then for 30+ years) and get them just
to first check the balance then (potentially) remove the existing
weights and re-balance the wheels if they are out?
I know some 50cc peds only go 30 mph (here in the UK especially) but
this 125cc Skipper is supposed to go a good deal faster (I've seen it
doing 55 mph already). ;-)
So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?
Any stories of feeling out_of_balance wheels etc ..?
All the best ..
T i m

Try these, they worked for me http://www.innovativebalancing.com/motorcycle.htm

[T i m]

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 03:44:41 -0800 (PST), ruonascooter

Post by ruonascooter

Post by T i m
Any stories of feeling out_of_balance wheels etc ..?
All the best ..
T i m

Try these, they worked for me http://www.innovativebalancing.com/motorcycle.htm

Hmm, if you hadn't said they worked for you I would have been fairly
skeptical .. more 'snake oil' etc?

The reason I'm not more skeptical is I have used Ultraseal (puncture
preventer) on most of our bikes so far and although I can't say I've
noticed an improvement in balance (they were all balanced in the first
place) it didn't put it out of balance either.

I had intended putting it in the scooter tyres but not until I've done
any static / dynamic balancing first (so it doesn't affect my
results).

Could you describe how you noticed the effect before / after please?

All the best ..

T i m

[Frederick G Young]

In the advert on the link website they say it doesn't have any effect on
the interior of the tire. Many years ago i installed some bead type alleged
self balancing disks on my car. The hollow disks themselves were made of a
plastic material. They were not cheap. After installing them I didn't notice
any difference in the feel of the car so I wrote off the cost to experience
and left them in place. After a few thousand miles I did a tire rotation
which meant i got to look at the discs containing the beads. i got to look
at the disks, but the beads were no where to be seen. It seems the beads had
worn through the inner surface of the disk and had escaped through the thin
spot they had created. So if the beads have no effect on the tire interior
then why did they wear a hole. I find it hard to believe that something
rolling around inside a tire does also not generate some heat. Has anyone
unmounted a tire after having these beads in place for a few thousand miles?
Even some small amount of debris in a tire eventually removes some of the
lining of the tire and becomes a rubber ball. I have removed a tire and
found about a tablespoonful or more of these rubber balls. Admittedly that
was some time ago, and more recent tires may have different linings than
then, but I would approach self balancing devices with a healthy dose of
scepticism.

Frederick

Post by ruonascooter

Post by T i m
Hi All,
I think I've asked this in another thread but because I'm interested
in a general poll on this I should I'd start a new question if I may.
Our daughters Piaggio Skipper scooter just had a new pair of tyres
fitted in the shop and when I mentioned balancing (just as they
finished fitting the wheels back on) they said "they don't bother
balancing with small wheeled scooters". They also mentioned something
about "because they only go slowly" etc etc.
Now what makes matters worse for me is that it also appears they have
left the previous balancing weights on (so someone must have thought
it worthwhile?) so in my mind that a double whammy?
For my peace of mind I'd be tempted to pop it back in there (they are
pretty friendly and I've known then for 30+ years) and get them just
to first check the balance then (potentially) remove the existing
weights and re-balance the wheels if they are out?
I know some 50cc peds only go 30 mph (here in the UK especially) but
this 125cc Skipper is supposed to go a good deal faster (I've seen it
doing 55 mph already). ;-)
So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?
Any stories of feeling out_of_balance wheels etc ..?
All the best ..
T i m

Try these, they worked for me
http://www.innovativebalancing.com/motorcycle.htm

[ruonascooter]

Post by T i m
Hi All,
I think I've asked this in another thread but because I'm interested
in a general poll on this I should I'd start a new question if I may.
Our daughters Piaggio Skipper scooter just had a new pair of tyres
fitted in the shop and when I mentioned balancing (just as they
finished fitting the wheels back on) they said "they don't bother
balancing with small wheeled scooters". They also mentioned something
about "because they only go slowly" etc etc.
Now what makes matters worse for me is that it also appears they have
left the previous balancing weights on (so someone must have thought
it worthwhile?) so in my mind that a double whammy?
For my peace of mind I'd be tempted to pop it back in there (they are
pretty friendly and I've known then for 30+ years) and get them just
to first check the balance then (potentially) remove the existing
weights and re-balance the wheels if they are out?
I know some 50cc peds only go 30 mph (here in the UK especially) but
this 125cc Skipper is supposed to go a good deal faster (I've seen it
doing 55 mph already). ;-)
So, am I being paranoid or do we *usually* get our wheels balanced
please?
Any stories of feeling out_of_balance wheels etc ..?
All the best ..
T i m

Try these, they work for me http://www.innovativebalancing.com/gallery1.htm

[c***@webtv.net]

A solid steel.metal plumb bob (like the kind used for carpentry) would
work if you drill a hole through the point of the plumb bob and use a
strong line to hang the plumb bob upside down.I think that would work.
cuhulin

[T i m]

Post by c***@webtv.net
A solid steel.metal plumb bob (like the kind used for carpentry) would
work if you drill a hole through the point of the plumb bob and use a
strong line to hang the plumb bob upside down.I think that would work.
cuhulin

Ooo, that gave me a thought re the supply of some nearly_ready_made
cones to thread on a suitable shaft but I can't remember if there were
any flat and parallel surfaces on them to be able to hold them to bore
them out on my lathe (to use on a vertical static balancer).

I think I would use the 3 jaw chuck in any case so would probably be
better off turning and boring the whole thing without removing it from
the chuck (to retain concentricity).

All the best ...

T i m

[c***@webtv.net]

What I would build for something like that is a three piece wooden
frame.I would cut a v notch in the top of the two wooden uprights and
use a cheap strap pipe clamp (you can easily make them out of scrap
metal and bend them to a fit around the Scooter wheel(s) axles) with
screws to hold the Scooter axle (with the axle still mounted in the
wheel) securely.Another piece of wood with a wire (coathanger wire or
something) bent at a right angle.Place the piece of wood with the wire
on the floor/driveway/sidewalk to check for wheel out of alignment.That
is about as simple and as good as it gets.Cheap too.
cuhulin